From: ddebry@itchy.dsd.es.com (David DeBry) Subject: GRAVIS ULTRASOUND -- NEW INFO (Long!) Date: 9 Apr 92 02:42:21 GMT NEW INFO ABOUT THE GRAVIS ULTRASOUND ==================================== I just pulled this off Prodigy a couple of days ago. There's a person on there with a direct source of info from the Gravis company, and he and I have swapped phone numbers and call each other often. The benefit: You can send me any questions you've got about the board, I relay them to him, he asks the company, sends the answers to me, and I'll post them for all to see. (Phew! Breathe here.) In any case, here's the stuff I passing along so far. ----- Start of included info ----- TO: ALL FROM: ADAM ROSENBERG (WNMB33A) SUBJECT: ADVANCED GRAVIS I just received a great number of updated product specification sheets from Brad Craig, Marketing Development Manager of Advanced Gravis, on the UltraSound. Here are all the specs. - 32 Synthesized Voice (NOT FM!) - 32 Digitized Voices - 16 Bit DAC - 8 Bit Stereo sampling at 1 to 44.1 kHz, upgradable to 16 bit with a daughterboard card - Industry Standard MIDI (6850 UART) - Includes MIDI In, Out, Thru connectors - SCSI compatible CD-ROM Interface on daughterboard (you may also use your own with the card if you already have one.) - Programmable, speed compensating game port with handles up to a 486/50 Mhz. - Signal to noise ratio: 80db - Total harmonic distortion: < .014% (No annoying constant hum or buzz.) - Built-in 2 watt amp - 4 line inputs - Fully AdLib and Soundblaster Compatible - Supports Windows Multimedia Extensions and includes drivers - Full on-card mixing of external CD-audio, digital audio, synthesizers, microphone, and line inputs. - Includes DIGITAL SOUND STUDIO 8 (upgraded to DIGITAL SOUND STUDIO 16 when you buy the 16 bit daughterboard). - 256k (expandable to 1meg) on-card memory included - RETAILS UNDER $200 (You'll be able to find it for $150) The reason the price is so low is simply because it can be, and Gravis sought the opportunity to make the high-end industry standard. It also have features that not everyone will need on daughterboards, instead of charging you more for features you may never use. Plenty of other daughterboards [besides the two mentioned above] are in the works as we speak, so this card will virtually never be out-dated. Gravis is also making a plethora of deals between a numerous amount of the major software publishers, and there will be support for this card upon its release [not including the pre-support allowed with the compatibility with the AdLib and SoundBlaster]. Speaking of which, the release date is end of April/early May. I have FINALLY been given a date whien I should receive the card by, which is April 17th. Don't worry, I'll announce it as soon as I receive the card, and I'll accept demo tapes as well as let you hear it over the phone. I'd also be happy to give you a spec by spec comparison between the UltraSound and any other card (especially the PAS-16, which the UltraSound blows away). The UltraSound is even ranked with the $850 MultiSound by Turtle Beach. TO: ANTHONY ROSALIA JR FROM: ADAM ROSENBERG (WNMB33A) SUBJECT: ADVANCED GRAVIS [Here's a price comparison against the PAS-16.] UltraSound PAS-16 Initial board $200 $359 Extra cost for SCSI $ 50 included in original Extra cost for 16bit sampling $ 50 included in original ----- ---- $300 $359 Besides, the UltraSound is DEFINITELY worth the NON-FM Michaelangelo (synthesizer chip set). As for the upgrade in RAM cost, the PAS-16 doesn't include 1meg does it? So it's not fair to compare that feature by cost when the other card can't even do it. And you're wrong! The card doesn't have to have a bit of FM to be AdLib or SoundBlaster compatible. That's where Michaelangelo and all new tech software developed by Gravis come in. Mikey has the ability to emulate just about anything, but that's about all I [am allowed to say right now]. There is not a chip of FM in the whole chip set, including the OPL-3 BS... FM is still FM no matter how you dress it up with bells and whistles. That's where the PAS-16 pales in comparison by using the nouveau-yet-still-ancient Yamaha Gold chip set. If you used it in a presentation you'd be embarassed. There's been talk of add-on chips for the PAS-16, but they're still based on the Yamaha Gold. TO: ALL FROM: ADAM ROSENBERG (WNMB33A) SUBJECT: ADVANCED GRAVIS [Sound Studio 8] Check the [first letter from Adam in this post] for the specs on the UltraSound. This is what Digital Sound Studio 8 (which is included with the UltraSound) requires and offers: Requirements: 286 CPU or up, Logitech or Microsoft compatible mouse, DOS 3.0 or up, EGA or VGA. Abilities: Digital Recording: 8 bit Digital editiing: YES Display Markers: Time/Byte/SMPTE Sample Rates: 1 to 44.1 kHz Sound storage: Direct to disk Other Features: Mixing Merging & Dubbing Reverb & Echo Waveform editing Zoom & Fade Unlimited undo Quoted from the Product Specification Sheet: "Digital Sound Studio 8 totally eliminates the tape hiss and sound degredation associated with audio tape... Sample rates from 1 to 44.1 khz let you control sound quality and file size. Direct to disk storage does not limit your sound file to available RAM, and lets yousave as many reels of sound as your hard drive will allow. The audio professional will feel instantly at home with the traditional sound studio controls displayed on an EGA or VGA screen. For beginners, Digital Sound Studio 8 is intuitive and easy to learn. "Among DSS 8's many features is the Waveform Editor. You can actually see what your sound looks like on your screen, and edit it visually. Special effects like reverb, echo, zoom, and fade can be added with a few simple clicks of the mouse button. And you can choose the display marker from among SMPTE, Time, and Byte display so you can synchronize your sound to your presentation or computer animation perfectly. A simple Undo button makes is simple for you to experiment with as many effects as you'd like. If you aren't satisfied with your sound, click on Undo will take you back to the previous version. "And, for the pros, Advanced Gravis offers and upgrade to 16 bit Digital Sound Studio. DSS 16 has all the great features of DSS 8, plus 20 track capability and unlimited sound track length." I know a lot of this may have already been obvious by the spec sheet alone, but an amateur may not understand all these features without a few sentences explanantion. If you'd like Gravis' number, it's 800-664-8558. If you have a fax and you'd like me to send you the updated spec sheets, you may contact me privately. ----- End of included info ----- \\ ddebry@dsd.es.com \ ddebry@cc.utah.edu \ debry@cadehp0.eng.utah.edu \\ David DeBry \ Email any address. \ Finger ddebry@cc.utah.edu for details. From: ddebry@itchy.dsd.es.com (David DeBry) Subject: Gravis Ultrasound vs. Adlib Gold Date: 8 Mar 92 20:07:31 GMT I pulled this comparison chart off of the SoundBlaster Programming Mailing List, and it was in turned pulled off a BBS somewhere. Don't mail me any questions -- I don't know any more than is in the file. (I have, however, called the company, and they're sending me all their literature on the Gravis Ultrasound, so I'll post it as soon as I get it.) Thanks to Carsten L. Skjerk for posting this list to the SB Programming Mailing List. ----------------Inserted chart------------------ UltraSound VS Adlib Gold Gravis Adlib ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ultrasound Gold Type of Chip True Digital Stereo FM Stereo # of Voices (Stereo) 32 Digital 20 FM # of Digital Stereo Channels 16 0 Levels of Volume Unlimited 128 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sampling Digital FM Sampling Rates Variable 1-44.1 Khz 44.1 Khz DAC 8 & 16 bit 12 bit ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amplifier 2W 1.2W Full Compatibility Adlib, Sound Blaster Adlib Memory 64K, expandable to 1 Meg unspecified 16 bit Card Yes Yes MIDI Support Yes Yes MIDI Connecters (in,out,through) Yes Yes True CD Quality Yes No Joystick Port with "Y" cable Yes MPC Compatible Yes Yes ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Suggested Retail (Can) $239.00 $349.00 + Advanced Gravis Technology Ltd. is based right here in Burnaby B.C. The Gravis Ultrasound is the most advanced sound board built yet. It will be like 32 Adlib Golds in one, it has true 16 bit CD quality sound, and is completely digital. Full on-card mixing of external CD audio, digital audio, synthesizers, microphone and line inputs ensure the highest quality of sound reproduction possible. It has a speed-compensating programmable joystick port, which ensures smooth game play on every computer from a trusty XT to a smoking fast 486-50. It is fully compatible with Adlib and Sound Blaster, and will play all Sound Blaster speech. It will even enhance your older games because it will run Adlib & Sound Blaster files through its own digital filters etc... The Ultrasound will be supported by all major game companies (ORIGIN, ETC). It will be able to record CD's, tapes, or any other input device directly to your hard drive and play them back. It's made by Advanced Gravis (you probably already have one of their joysticks). "It's like comparing an FM radio to a Compact Disc." Release Date as known now is April 1st, 1992. ---------------End of inserted chart ------------------- David DeBry | H: 801/533-9138 | W: 801/582-5847 x4721 | ddebry@dsd.es.com From: Alistair_Hirst@mindlink.bc.ca (Alistair Hirst) Subject: Advanced Gravis UltraSound Date: 3 Apr 92 07:28:11 GMT Since there seems to be a fair amount of interest on the subject, I have decided to pass on the information I have on this card. This is the information I received on a product specification sheet in March on the Gravis Ultrasound card for the PC. Keep in mind that things may have changed. I suspect that the card will be supported by the major games companies. By the way, I don't work for AG, so I'm not trying to plug the card, just share the info I have. Propaganda mode on.... Suggested retail(US) under $200 On board memory 256K Software required DOS 3.0 or greater Digital audio 8 or 16 bit Digital Stereo Channels 16 Voices 32 Signal to noise ratio 80 db Stereo Amplifier built in 2W Digital sampling 8 bit Variable Sampling rate 1-44.1 kHz MIDI Support Ind. Stndrd (6850 UART) MIDI connectors In, out through Full Adlib/Soundblaster compatibility Ultrasound features compatibility plus- you can hear the difference. Full Ad Lib and Sound Blaster compatibility makes UltraSound the most versatile sound solution for your IBM PC or compatible. In fact, Gravis UltraSound will surpass other sound cards in sound quality when used with software specifically programmed for UltraSound. And UltraSound supports Microsoft Windows Multimedia Extensions, for added sound impact in your presentations and Windows applications. UltraSound features recording/sampling with variable rates from 1-44.1 kHz in both mono and stereo. Full on-card mixing of external CD audio, digital audio, synthesizers, microphone and line inputs ensure the highest quality of sound reproduction possible for multimedia presentations. An optional expansion daughter board for CD ROM drives and other SCSI devices make the possibilities virtually limitless. Industry standard MIDI support, with connectors for MIDI in, out and through, is included with the Gravis UltraSound, making it easy to use your own standard MIDI files with UltrSound. It comes with 256 bytes of on-card memory, expandable to one megabyte, so you can keep making beautiful music for a long time to come. You can upgrade to professional 16-bit stereo recording and sampling capability, too, for quality reproduction of your own digitized sounds. A programmable, Eliminator quality, speed compensating game port comes with the UltraSound, for the ultimate games-playing machine. The joystick port supports two joysticks with the addition of a "Y" cable, and speed com- pensation ensures smooth game play on every computer from a trusty XT to a smoking fast 50 mHz 486. Propaganda mode off... From: David DeBry Subject: Gravis Ultrasound - information Date: Sat, 18 Apr 92 16:32:27 CDT This letter contains answers to a lot of questions that people have been sending me concerning my posts about the Gravis Ultrasound. It also has some new information I've obtained about the card. The whole document is in question and answer form, so the new info comes up as the questions are asked. The document is being mailed to people who sent me questions, plus being posted to various newsgroups. If I didn't answer one of your questions, or you have other questions about the card, please feel free to send them to me. -------- 1) How is the Ultrasound MIDI compatible? Gravis has just postponed the date of release of the card to mid-May to allow for COMPLETE compatibility with MPU-401 as part of the standard board. No need to buy add-ons. They will still also be MIDI industry standard (6850 UART) compatible as well. I'm sorry, currently that's all the info I have on that subject. I'm trying to get more here... have patience, but send me specific questions so I can ask better ones! -------- 2) When will the Ultrasound be available? See question #1. 2a) At what cost? Under $200. -------- 3) When will the daughterboard for the Ultrasound (the 16 bit sampling and SCSI interface boards) be available? 3rd Quarter '92. 3a) At what cost each? Around $50 each. 3b) How many slots on the computer will the daughterboards take? None. They plug directly into the Ultrasound, to save space and time on the bus. They both will have direct access to the 256k to 1meg of RAM you have on the Ultrasound to speed them up as well. -------- 4) What does buying the 16 bit sampling daughterboard get me? The Ultrasound can play back 16-bit samples WITHOUT the daughterboard. You need the board to record 16-bit samples, though. Also, you get the Sound Studio 16, which is a much more advanced version of the Sound Studio 8, which comes standard with the base card. -------- 5) How many synthesized and sampled voices does the Ultrasound have? It has 32 Non-FM synthesized voices, and 32 sampled voices, in stereo. -------- 6) What is this Non-FM sound synthesis business? Gravis has developed a new form of sound synthesis (called "Michaelangelo", no relation to the virus) which blows FM away. (This isn't too hard -- FM synthesis is pretty poor. However, Michaelangelo is VERY good... leaps and bounds beyond FM.) -------- 7) How can the Ultrasound be Adlib (standard and Gold) and Soundblaster (standard and Pro) compatible if it doesn't do FM sound synthesis? The Michaelangelo system is so powerful that it can easily emulate FM synthesis. In fact, it often improves on the sounds that were intended for FM. This will also improve the digitized speech far beyond what the Soundblaster Pro can do. -------- 8) Will it come with Windows software? Be serious... you want everything for under $200, don't you? :) -------- 9) How is it compatible with Windows Multimedia Extensions? The Ultrasound will have full compatibility with Microsoft Windows Multimedia Extensions, and completely conforms to Microsoft's MPC requirements for audio. -------- 10) Is anyone organizing a USENET group purchase of the board? I might be willing to try this. Any suggestions on how to set it up? Respond to me if you are interested in a group purchase to push the cost down, and I'll get in touch with Gravis to see if they are interested as well. ------- 11) Was your "$200 + $50 + $50 = $250" in one of your spec mailings a typo, or is SCSI and 16bit sampling on only one daughterboard for $50 total? It was a typo -- I apologize. $200 + $50 + $50 still equals $300, which is the price you'll probably end up paying for the whole shebang. ------- 12) Does the studio 8 include a sampler program ( which allows you to record, edit, and store your samples ) ??? if not, does the package include such a program ??? Sound Studio 8 allows you to sample, edit waveforms, and then compose using the samples. It's a complete composition studio for the Ultrasound. ------- 13) Is Sound Studio 8 included in the $200 price? Yes. 13a) Is SS16 included in the $50 price for the daughterboard? Yes. ------- 14) Can you please post all the info you have for getting in touch with Gravis? Head Office: 7400 MacPherson Ave. #111 Burnaby, British Columbia, CANADA V5J 5B6 Phone: (604) 434-7274 FAX: (604) 434-7809 Order: (800) 663-8558 Support:(604) 434-1807 US Sales: 1602 Caoline St. #D12 Bellingham, WA 98226 Europe Sales: Logitech, Switzerland Raffaella Ettore, Director 41 (0) 21 869 96 56 ------- 15) Is it a stereo card? Yes. ------- That's it for now, folks. Please send me your questions, comments, etc. Also, if you are interested in a group purchase, read question #10 and then send me mail. \\ ddebry@dsd.es.com \ ddebry@cc.utah.edu \ debry@cadehp0.eng.utah.edu \\\ David DeBry \ Email any address. \ Finger ddebry@cc.utah.edu for details. From: ddebry@scratchy.dsd.es.com (David DeBry) Subject: Gravis Ultrasound - Latest Info!! (LONG) Date: 18 Jun 92 01:28:51 GMT First, I'd like to apologize for taking so long in getting this latest info to you all. In an attempt to solve this problem, I'm starting a mailing list for the Ultrasound. If you'd like to be on it, mail me and I'll put you on the list and tell you how to write to it. I'm going to put in a couple of articles from Prodigy that I've chosen. They're pretty informative. After that, I'll go through and try and answer some of the questions everyone has sent me. Like I said, though, the best way to keep up on the Ultrasound from now on is to join the mailing list. RELEASE INFO: Supposedly, the card was released TODAY (Wednesday, June 17, 1992). Check your stores or mail order companies or whatever to see if they've got the thing now. GROUP PURCHASE INFO: Due to several reasons, I've decided not to pursue to the group purchase concept with the Ultrasound. First, I only got about 25 responses along that vein. Also, while the card lists at $200, it's been offered as low as $139 from some mail order houses, making it a much better deal than anything else out there. Finally, I don't have the time to push it. If anyone else wants to try it, I'll forward on all the addresses of folks who are interested in buying into it. Here's the articles: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FROM: DONALD GRIFFIN (BSJJ54A) TO: ALL SUBJECT: ADVANCED GRAVIS I just came from a conference where I saw and heard the Ultrasound card but I had trouble getting them to play something MIDI from the main onboard synthesizer. They mostly played .WAV files that always sound good. Now for details. Without going into TOO much detail: 16 bit stereo, 32 voice playback. All voices mixed onboard. Wavetable style synthesis [instead of FM], playback and record (waves) up to 44.1 kHz, 8 bit recording [16 bit with the daughterboard], 8 or 16 bit playback standard, line and amplified outputs, line and mic inputs, 80 dB SNR and <.014 THD, MIDI (6850) onboard, Gravis Joystick Interface, SoftSelect IRQ and DMA, XT and AT, Adlib and Soundblaster compatible, 256k DRAM onboard [upgradeable to 1 Meg], optional daughterboards for SCSI and 16 bit recording... that was all abbreviated from their own documentation. Now for the IMPORTANT stuff: While the Ultrasound has an AdLib interface chip to make everyboady happy, the real possibilities are in the 32 voice Wave Table Synthesizer that is the heart of the unit. I wish I could say that I had heard it played, but I don't think I did in their demo. The potential of this synthesizer is incredible for a ~$200 card. Wave Table Synthesis [previously called "Michaelangelo" by Gravis] uses a technique where you record digitally the sound of the instrument that you want it to sound like. Example: I want a grand piano, so I record an A 440 (that's the musical note that you get with a wave at 400 Hz). I then use their wave editing software [that comes with the card] to trim off what I don't want and then I pick the attack part of the wave (that's the sound just when the note starts (most important for realistic sounds)). Then I pick an area starting where the attack leaves off and see how much more I want for the sustaining sound. This part will be played right after the attack and looped over and over until the note is due to end. Now, I COULD just use this one recording to make all the notes of the keyboard; their software in the synthesizer will stretch that recording up and down the keyboard to get all the higher and lower notes. This works okay for a few notes to either side of the 'real' one, but begins to sound weird [when you get too far away]. So, the next step is to make several more such recordings spread out over the keyboard (Ultrasound allows up to 14 per instrument) and the end result is a more realistic sound over the entire keyboard. Next, to allow for what MIDI musicians call "velocity" (the different sound you get when you hit the key or blow the note or pluck the string harder), Ultrasound allows for 4 different sound they called "layers" so you could end up with 4 different sounds to cover velocity differences. Don't hold me to details on this. I'm not a rep for Gravis... I just listened hard and read some literature and I do computer music for a living. Next: There are 4 channels of this type of sound. Not instruments, but sound channels that can be panned left or right before leaving to your speakers. This means that channel 1 can be the Left Stereo channel for music from the synthesizer, channel 2 can be the Right channel for the synthesizer, and channels 3 and 4 could be for things like simultaneous game sound effects. Result: You could hear Stereo (panned, or true stereo can be accomplished with some work) while hearing an announcement that says "Caution, Caution", while ALSO hearing your plane blow up, and all from the same part of the card! Think about this: 1) All the sounds come from software that is loaded when the game is run. 2) There are up to 14 sounds to make up each musical instrument. 3) In MIDI, you get a drum set by making each note in an instrument sound like a different drum. So, in effect, 1 MIDI instrument is the whole drum set. 4) General MIDI says there are 128 different instruments. 5) An instrument doesn't have to be a 'real' musical instrument. It can be set up like the drum set mentioned in point #3 but made up of pigs, chickens, machine guns, jet noise, and talking. Anything that can be recorded and lasts only a couple of seconds (I don't know what the length limit is). [Ed note: Time length is dependent on memory onboard, memory free on your computer, bus speed to hard drive, and hard drive size.] Result: You can have up to 32 simultaneous sounds that can be anything from musical instruments to explosion sounds to speech: anything that can me recorded. Example: The game there music could be like a police show theme, complete with screeching tires, sirens, and even narration of the credits. This and that: Two recordings for each sound placed on separate "instruments" but panned properly and played together would deliver what is called "true stereo". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TO: ALL FROM: ADAM ROSENBERG (WNMB33A) SUBJECT: ADVANCED GRAVIS Okay, you guys have done great, but I'll just summarize everything (including what you mentioned) I learned from my recent conversation with my contact at Gravis. I received a new spec sheet via fax, which has a picture of the Ultrasound on it (pretty chock-filled!), and diagrams where many of its features are onthe card. The four line in/outs are: Microphone In, Audio Line In, Audio Line Out, and Amplified Out. Some mnore new info in is that the dynamic range had been pumped up from 80db to 96db, and the onboard 256k is upgradable to 1 MB with standard DIP memory chips. As for your questions: Yes, multitasking may be used to run a sequencer along with DSS8/16; the 1 MEG RAM< is supposedly not too small at all because the US is incredibly efficient; of course you can connect both daughtercards to the Ultrasound! As you've seen posted here, there are over 115 companied that have signed agreements to support the Ultrasound, that includes the biggie game ones such as Origin, LucasFilm, Electronic Arts, Accolade, Access, and Sierra... the list goes on. On a lighter note, two major happenings have occurred with other companies who make sound boards for the IBM's: First, AdLib has finally gone bankrupt, so the AdLib Gold will NOT be made. Second, Creative Labs (maker of the Soundblaster) is sueing Media Vision! The TB, PAS, and PAS-16's SoundBlaster emulator apparently weren't quite as kosher as MediaVision led everyone to believe. They infringed on Creative Labs' copyrights in software related to the SoundBlaster line of products. The suit further alleges that MediaVision's SoundBlaster compatible products are derived from software which infringes on such copyrights and seeks to enjoin MediaVision's continued sales of such products. If this is proved, MediaVision could actually be forced out of business, or at least seriously injured. However, don't worry about the Ultrasound's SoundBlaster emulator. It uses completely different technology, namely the Wave Synthesis, to create the compatibility, and therefore Creative Labs can't lay a finger on it. The release date is placed in the week of June 17th. The card still retails at $200, but is listed as low as $139 in some mail order ads. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, questions. Q] If I already have a SCSI interface, would it conflict with anything on the Ultrasound, hardware or software-wise? A] No. All that does for you is mean you don't have to buy the SCSI daughterboard. Congrats! Q] What exactly is going on with MIDI compatibility for the board? A] Originally, I was given info that the board was MPU-401 compatible. Now, it looks like that it is 6850 UART compatible instead. However, until I get some more information, the best I can tell you is that it IS MIDI compatible, but as to which standard, I'm not sure yet. Q] Will device drivers for Windows 3.1 be provided? A] Yep... that's part of the standard release. Q] Will programming information be provided? A] I'm sure it will, although I don't know yet if it's a separate package or part of the standard, or when it will be released. Q] How standard is the SCSI interface (as opposed to the SoundBlaster's pseudo-standard SCSI)? A] From what I've heard (remember, don't chew me out for any of this if it doesn't pan out... I'm just the messenger!) the interface will be FULLY SCSI compatible. Q] Is all the stuff needed to emulate the Soundblaster and AdLib standard with the card? A] Yes. It's a VERY SMALL TSR program that comes on the disks that you get with the card. Q] How much are the daughterboards going to run for? A] I previously reported prices for those at $50 each. Now it looks like the prices are going to be somewhere between $100-$150 apiece. Q] What software will be included with the standard package? A] I don't know EVERYTHING that will be included, but I can tell you some of the things. Digital Sound Studio 8, the Windows 3.1 drivers, the TSRs for compatibility with other sound cards, MIDI interface software, lots of example music, presumably a players for the example music... more on this as I'm told about it. (See why it's a good reason to join the mailing list?) Well, that's about all my fingers can handle typing. If you have any questions or info about the board, either post them as a follow up to this message, or join the mailing list and put them there. Enjoy! -- \\\ "I am a palm tree, and I'm down on my knees with the last of the \\\ \\\ sponges. I don't know if I can take it. And Charlotte's on her \\\ \\\ way? Oh, no!" - The Bobs, "Mopping, Mopping, Mopping" \\\ \\ ddebry@dsd.es.com \ ddebry@cc.utah.edu \ debry@cadehp0.eng.utah.edu \\ David DeBry \ Email any address. \ Finger ddebry@cc.utah.edu for details.